Friday, July 3, 2009

be a feminist, just dont be a housewife.

arabella loves all the things i always wanted my daughter to love. and although i may seem like the kind of mother who made sure that she chose the things i wanted, i'm not. i have had very little influence, if any, on her deciding she's obsessed with princesses or pink, or nail polish or jewelery etc.. i mean, obviously she sees me use this stuff but when she has been into the things i despise (ie. baseball, yellow, dora, purple etc) i still tell her that its great that she loves those things. anyway, i've been thinking about all the things she loves, princesses and princes, her kitchen and all that entails, the baking, the cooking, wearing an apron. she loves talking about getting married and saying 'when i get married', and she loves taking care of her baby.... all this scares the shit out of me, to be honest. i'm not afraid i wont be able to teach her what i want to, but this just wakes me up and makes me realize i dont like the way its headed. luckily she's two, and i have a lot of time to move in other directions.

the point here is that i dont want to raise daughters who think they're role, or the things they should be excited about or enjoy are the traditional womens activities. i dont want them thinking they are supposed to love baking, sewing, or princesses. i dont want them thinking they are supposed to want a prince, that someone is EVER supposed to come rescue them, or that they are supposed to get married. i dont want them thinking they are supposed to have children. i want to teach them to love the things they love no matter what they are. if they get older and hate baking or cooking, god love them, i'll tell them to hire a chef when they grow up. if they hate princesses and want to be a soccer player, i'll tell them to bend it like bekham. (then i'll blush in embarrassment for myself). if they want to be single for the rest of their lives, i'll tell them to enjoy themselves and their friends. if they decide they love women, i'll tell them i'm proud of who they are. i want my daughters to understand that exactly who they are is beyond enough. they never have to get married or have children or do the things i've done or like the things i like. they are great just the way they are. i want them to think of marriage as something that is an option, something they can partake in if they choose, an added extra that they could certainly live without. not a necessity.

i might offend a thousand people right now, but i dont really care, it makes me furious that people, any people, think women should be mothers and wives, that we should cook and clean etc. i never want my daughters to end up housewives with children and thinking that's all they are. i get that some women like that that's all they are, and think its more fulfilling than anything else, but for me, if i end up with daughters who feel that way.... that will be the hard thing to deal with. i have to balance this extreme, because chances are they will get married and they will bake at some point, and i want to be happy if that's all they ever choose to do. but it makes me want to hide my sewing machine and teach them to be feminists.

the reason i want them to know marriage, sewing, baking, babies, are a choice, is because i didn't know. i mean i knew they were a choice, but i thought they were the obvious choice and any other would have been shameful. my mother didn't teach me how to be a good mother or a good housewife. she didn't teach me how to bake or sew, but something she instilled in me from a very young age was that i needed a man. i needed someone else to make me whole and i needed someone to rescue me. she taught me that i should learn to adapt and form around whoever this man might be that i will need in order to make him happy, therefore denying myself and letting me go. this is something i see in the church a lot, spoken about as a great thing. i see it as excruciatingly harmful.

most of the women that will be in their lives are women who either have gotten married, had kids and done nothing else... or women who have wanted that and didn't get it. i want more women in my daughters lives who have done no such thing and have no intention.

i know my daughters will look up to me and therefore might want to follow in my footsteps of marriage and children, if they are persistent i will have to love and support this choice. but i want them to know that this is NOT the only choice and any one of many options they choose could be the best for them. although i've already made the marriage and baby choice, i want to lead by example in other areas too. i want to show them that i am so much more than just this and i want more in my life than this, and thats not just acceptable, its great. i want them to see that seth and i dont need each other, we chose this and had we chosen differently we would be no less.

i want to learn how to give them a balanced view of marriage and children, and i'm not sure quite yet how that works but i am sure as hell not going to have little girls running around saying things like 'when i grow up and get married', or 'when i grow up and have babies' as if it is their only choice.


skylana said...

To me marriage and kids has nothing to do with eternity and what I leave behind. I do believe there is some sort of life after death but marriage and kids in my opinion are not the like 'highest' way to find love, to grow or to change. It's a nice sentiment and an easy way to make myself feel better about my choices, and maybe these choices really are what's best for me. But I don't think they're what's best for everyone and I think a lot of people make them out of the notion that this is what we as humans are supposed to do and not just because it's what they truly desire in life. Christianity is about denying yourself so it may never make sense the way i see it but I look at following your true desires, the ones that make you truly you as the best thing you can do.... Because you were made to be you and who you are is good.

skylana said...

Hahah I would never. I agree about relationships. Those just aren't the only relationships there are and not necessarily the ones that will grow you more than others.

Andrea June said...

I'm kind of confused by your proclamation that you're "not a feminist in the slightest," Ashley. Do you believe in equal opportunities, fair pay, and the right to vote? If so, then you hold feminist beliefs.
Feminism isn't about bra burning and being anti-marriage or anti-man, but believing that women should have a choice in their pursuits, that women should have the same rights as men. Additionally, third wave feminist belief extends the idea of equal opportunity beyond gender, into race issues. I'm fairly certain give your post that you believe women and minorities should have equal opportunities to white men.
You're not a feminist? I think maybe you're mistaken, especially if you're a Christian, because Jesus was one of the historical figures most ahead of his time in terms of liberating women and treating them as equals. Believing in Jesus and his teaching practically mandates that we hold feminist beliefs, just as Jesus did.

skylana said...

george, i really dont even know how to answer you i so strongly disagree with so much of what you said and find you to be so very condescending towards women in general in a lot of what you said. maybe some other ladies would like to take it on, i would not. we are different. that's ok. i'm not worried about you and i talking about this to the point of seeing eye to eye or anything close. some of the things you said that to you are good things, are to me, awful and not ways i want my daughters growing up. its hard to talk to someone about issues that come to morals when their morals lie completely in something you dont find true, or use as a way of living. there is no way to argue or talk back and forth when our moral compasses are pointing to different Norths. anyway.... the point of this is not a moral debate, its that i do want strong, powerful women, who know they dont need to be anything but themselves... i think we need people in different ways but we dont have to depend on anyone but ourselves. i want my children to find their happiness inside themselves before anything else. including jesus.

skylana said...

i have to say that namely this statement: 'It makes women crazy power trippers that are climbing the business ladder which they handle not so well, because they are wired more emotionally... which makes their ability to make decisions aside from that difficult.' really severely chapped my ass.

skylana said...

well you certainly can't base an idea of feminism off ONE person. just as you can't assume that every man is evil because one beat his wife. come on.

and i totally disagree with that statement that 'women are wired more emotionally'. that is a very blanket statement and not true in a lot of the cases i know in real life. its certainly case by case i believe. i would trust myself as a true true leader any day. i would trust myself more than anyone else any day.

i relate to samantha jones as far as feminism goes.

skylana said...

haha... yea me and seth are perfect examples of head/woman vs heart/man.

trusting myself would never have come if i stayed a christian... im not saying thats why you dont, but i'm not saying its not why you dont. its hard to tell what you believe about that when the religion you believe in, tells you its wrong no matter what you think.

seth says 'oprah is doing pretty well for herself.'

skylana said...

oh by the way you guys are both making me want to burn my bra, punch random men for oppressing me, and become a lesbian.

skylana said...

i was joking babe.

yea we wont agree.

love you.

meg said...

I really, really wish I'd read sooner and gotten in on the middle of this, especially after George's post. Oh well, looks like it's dead.

Mrs. Warren said...

HOLY GOD. speaking as a logical woman in a place of power in the business world, i can say I got here by using my analytical mind, not by acting on emotion.

i'm also a mother of a toddler and a wife. i try to embody the ideal that women don't need to be conventionally defined. i hope to raise my daughter to do the same... define femininity for herself. i want her to be the woman she wants to be.

i certainly wish she didn't have to grow up and develop in a world where men and women cling to this archaic belief that being a housemom is all she should ever do. i never want her to think she can't be a leader because "women aren't good at that type of stuff." but she will grow up with that around her because close-minded people with ideas like that exist. too bad. my hope is that despite that, she'll just shoot up, and bust a few million more cracks in that glass ceiling hillary was talking about.

skylana said...

its not dead to me and i'd still LOVE other peoples opinions, especially yours meggie.

meg said...

Okay so I'm kind of glad cause I was seriously pissed back there.

George. WOW. I'm stunned. Not in a good way.

I just had to get that out there, but first, Lana...I've recently realized that some of the things you say come across kind of 'controversial' because of the lens that people see you through, when frankly most of what you say isn't that controversial, it's maybe just the way you say it(?)

All that to say, as a general statement from here on out, I think what you write, what you process is all healthy, rational things that any person in their right thinking mind would be processing.

I have to go help my husband fix his motorcycle, but I'll be back, i just didn't want to loose the beginning of my comments.

begin and end, again said...

i'm confused about George's statement in regards to women having "always been powerful throughout history." historically, men won the battles, made the laws, went to school, did the inventing, wrote the books, had the careers, and WROTE the history. women were, and still are , relegated to power divvied out by men as they see fit. this is exactly what feminists fight for-- our rights as human beings equal to men. women were seeking the same power, defined as the ability to accomplish a goal despite resistance, that men have.
also, to suggest that femininity is a "gender blur" is a grossly ignorant statement. gender is COMPLETELY defined by society, differing from "sex" which is the term used to define the genitalia of a person. Gender roles are another huge area of contention for feminists. Its pushed in every facet of our society that to be a woman means that you: are a "nurturer by nature", are delicate and "soft, are emotional, are most fulfilled when a man is compensating for you over-emotional and irrational actions, etc etc. Anyone who doesn't fit into this role is/was considered abnormal. These societal norms are defined by the dominant figure in the culture-- white men. This is true for any society; the norms within a culture are defined by the dominant group or the group with the most power (ability to accomplish goal despite resistance). As for the bible, it holds no bearing as an authority on what a woman is because again, men were writing and defining what a woman is. It's just another example of the same thing.
Women in general have is bad but black women have it the worst. To be a black woman was, and unfortunately still is, a life sentence as nothing more than a work horse and a sexual object.
Many people don't question the roles with which they identify. I am a female (sex) but in many ways, i am not very "womanly". i like to get dirty, i'm extremely crass, highly sexual, and have no desire to be married, though great desire for a companion and commitment in whatever form i encounter. Feminism for myself and other women, means telling the dominant culture that they have no right to decide what is normal for me, that i am as womanly as i can be because i identify as a woman.I am a woman and therefore, everything i do is womanly.
also, the work place is a very interesting place to see the roles woman are allowed to play. in the office women fall into two categories, the sweet girl or the bitch. any assertiveness or managing is "bitchy" while the same actions done my men are welcomed and viewed as drive and ambition. its helpful to remember this when thinking about women who feel threatened in the workplace. their fear is justified and understandable when you consider how much they are restricted by their role.
george, perhaps people get razzed because you say such harmful and offensive things about women and females and not because they aren't willing to be reasonable. It sounds very condescending to suggest that differing opinions and passion denote irrationality.

meg said...

George. WOW, I didn't think you could be any more condescending toward woman than you were in your first statement, but you did it again.

If you truly believe "multiple views" on the table are good for a discussion, I am confused as to why you would continue to marginalize the rest of us involved? You didn't even address the true nature of Skylana's post.

At the heart of what she spoke to was wanting her daughters to know they have a choice when it comes to being a mother or a wife. And when other women responded to her post you didn't respond with a healthy discussion or ask them to "further explain" themselves. You instead responded with a couple of paragraphs that were doing exactly what you said you weren't intending to do.

I suppose it could be your steadfast belief that women are overly emotional, but to take the expression of another person's opinion or personal experience and heighten it to a passionate rant that has resulted in you praying that "each of you will be blessed" is beyond condescending.

Just because you say your intention is not to marginalize anyone, doesn't mean you aren't.

meg said...

Skylana - Just as I stated in my last blog, if I have a little boy I'm going to give him condoms and tell him to 'wrap it up' every time since he can make a baby any time, any day. And if I have a daughter perhaps I'll send her to you for the "you don't have to be a mom" talk. I think every little girl should hear it. So get it down to like 10 minutes cause we all know teenagers have short attention spans.

For years after we got married I felt bad that we didn't have kids yet, not because I wanted kids at the time, but because everyone else wanted us to have kids.

I can't imagine a more stupid reason to have a baby. Well, I can imagine a couple -like cause you don't want your boyfriend to break up with you or something like that.

But the point is, why would I want to tell my child I didn't choose to have them? (another reason to tell boys to wrap it up)

I am fulfilled in my marriage, I love my job and I want a baby. If I have a child it will be because we want to have a baby, not because it's my duty or my ultimate purpose. Every little girl should know this.

I have a theory. If a girl gets pregnant in high school, or young, before college etc, she grows up in her formative adult years thinking that is all she is, a baby making mother. She can loose her ambition, her drive, her self respect and fall into the cycle that Oprah is trying to get so many housewives out of. "I live for my family"

Unless that young girl rises above this ingrained idea, the world looses out on all she has to offer. That's a sad thing.

Andy Hero said...

Another man's thoughts-

George: sometimes when people get razzed, miffed or pissed it's because someone else is being a jerk. I have a lot of experience razzing, miffing and pissing people off and in my experience it is best to take a long look at myself and ask what I did that affected them this way.

Which brings me to my real point--Skylana's post is not about feminism. She made one off handed comment about the subject: "but it makes me want to hide my sewing machine and teach them to be feminists." Taken out of context I can see how one might want to go on a tirade about the dangers of such behavior--but why on earth would you want to take something like that out of context? When looked at in context we see that this is not a statement Skylana is remotely committed to; it's hyperbole.

So what was this post about (silly that I should have to explain this to you)? This post is about--for lack of a better way to describe it--the existential choice an individual has to make over the course of her life. Skylana want's here children to know that they have to be active in defining their own existence and that they shouldn't merely fall into whatever role culture or their parents or religion set out for them. Simple as that. Whatever the merits are of the traditional role of women you are advocating--or of feminism for that matter--for a women to choose that role based on the assumption that she has no other option is essentially a non-choice and is an egregious disservice to that woman's soul. This seems to me to be the crux of Skylana's arguments in this blog.

Before I go, let me say one more thing. I think that if someone is going to comment on a blog, it is considerate to at least interact with the central themes of the post. Otherwise you're just hijacking the conversation with you're own agenda. To do that is not only in poor taste, it also, (by it's nature) creates an audience who will be hostile to your *ahm* lecture.

Skylana: What the 'F' girl? You just made a textbook argument for existentialism--so let's not give me any shit about it anymore.

Elissa Rachael Parrish said...

skylana... i am so very blessed by this blog... not the posts so much but the blog... this very issue has been weighing on my mind this week especially...

i find myself in a very odd place because i definitely lost my trust in god... i think that it has matured me... grown me up... now i am just trying to find some version of what christianity means to me and i what i have chosen to believe... but i don't trust...

but now i don't trust anyone else... the problem is i don't trust myself either... this leaves me in a very "limbo" feeling place that is very uncomfortable.

i don't want to be here long but i do want to say that this time has showed me how much more complex things are than i thought.

i think an open mind is a sign of maturity. any one person that thinks that they know how all women are or who jesus really is is not only immature but it seems condescending.

it may seem condescending of me to say that i could have written these same remarks five years ago that i find immature now.

our entire lives will be a story of finding what we believe. we don't believe now what we always will (hopefully). this realization has made me not so sure of myself. both a good and bad thing that will change and mature like everything else.

MEGAN said...

Woah, lotta comments. I read this blog when there weren't any comments, and I didn't think it was offensive at all. Your daughter wants to cook and have babies because that's what she sees her mom doing. If you were a lawyer, she'd prob play w/a briefcase like yours and say I want to go to court. Parents are the #1 influence on their kids life until the age of 15, then peers take over. Until your kids are 15 they're probably going to want to be like you, and think like you...and la la la.

I can see where George is coming from...women and men are intrinsically different. Sure, maybe some woman are great, powerful business women, but we're not wired the same as men, emotions are involved.

I think it's wonderful and empowering that you will tell your girls to do WHATEVER they want, and to be who they want to be. That's what my dad always told me, and now contrary to popular custom (in the christian world), and along with my friends, I'm NOT having children right now, because I've been married for gasp, 2 years. I want a career, I want to change the world, and I believe that I can...thanks Dad.

So, I hope you and Seth tell your girls that nothing is out of their reach.

skylana said...

although my blog was not about feminism, i'd like to say that i am definitely a feminist. maybe even a socialist feminist.

andy. i seriously love you. i also love existentialism. i only give you shit about it because i dont know any other mouth that word has come out of as much as yours.

Polly. I of course loved what you had to say, I always do. Always.

Elissa. the same and I appreciate the point you made about us believing that we do know jesus truly. I think we know our versions of him very well, but to know him as he was…. Im not sure anyone can be objective enough to find that knowledge.

Meg. I know you as one person that has dealt with people expecting certain things from you. Expecting you to be that traditional woman, and I like who you are.

Megan. What you talk about is a specific view of feminism, that women are intrinsically different from men and our emotions are never really out of play. I believe the opposite view to this feminism, I believe we are different because of socially constructed gender identities. So… maybe there are differences because of society, but how do we change these differences? We can change them, I believe, they are not intrinsic to our nature… plus these are not true differences across the board. They just aren’t.

skylana said...

ashley... my comment back to you has to be broken up.. because its too long... so here it goes...

every time you write a comment i feel shocked at how you say things i have said in my life. word for word. this is not to say that someday you will be like me, but its just interesting to hear you knowing how much we have in common. its like looking straight into my past. i mean seriously, almost everything you have said, i have said. (even wanting a house with tons of bedrooms for homeless people and single mothers and orphans). i have felt the things you feel with great passion and fervor. i fought for those ideals, those dreams, that identity.

as far as believing we choose our own right and wrong (which i think is in the other comment on the vlog.. which i'm only holding until the video is back up..).. so as far as believing we choose our own right and wrong we do. you do too. you just think you're getting it from an outside source. yea maybe the bible says some things are right and some things are wrong in plain english but you are taking those on with your own discernment. you are deciding to trust that as right, therefore you are choosing what you believe is right... and where the bible is silent you make many of your own choices. you can say the holy spirit is guiding you or convicting you but because this cannot be proven you have to understand that as far as everyone else on the outside of you is concerned, YOU are defining what is right and wrong for you. the only difference between us is that you, as many christians do, believe that what you define as right or wrong is what everyone else should see as right and wrong also. i'm sick of the argument that if we all choose whats right for us then people can kill and it is ok, this argument feels very youth group, for lack of a better term. i believe that within yourself and your actions, without placing physical harm on another human being, you can choose what is right or wrong for yourself. when we start to believe that our actions that physically harm another are right, then we are moving out of our own rights, we have gone too far. as far as abortion, there is nothing defining this 'being' as a human with a soul or an outside being from my very own body, not only this but to truly know what pain is even felt at that level if any, or if there is truly life there... are all questions that remain unanswered. i can see how if you believe that is a baby from day one, or something that has a soul or whatnot that this would be a horrific thing to do. so i say, dont do it. but dont tell me that i have to believe something because you do, you know? i'm not going to believe this is a baby, or there is a soul there because you say its true. and you believing its true doesn't make it true, just as me believing its not holds no weight in what is the actual absolute truth either. neither of us will know this absolute here, we will not know when a soul is in a child, if that is a baby, etc etc.. we will not know when life truly begins or be able to come to a clear agreement on the definition of what life actually is. so i dont understand why we can't both have our way. you have your convictions and dont abort children, i'll have mine and if need be i will.

skylana said...

so all this to say, we ALL define what is right and wrong in our own lives. we all choose to pick what we want from ourselves, other people, our 'god', the bible... everything. we pick, we choose, we decide what we are comfortable with as far as our morals go. There are NO absolutes, and if there are we can’t possibly think we have somehow found them and defined them above another. There are only absolutes for your own life… and even those are debatable. Maybe there is something that our creator or whoever gets to truly define right and wrong in the end, defines as right. We can NEVER fully know that here. No one has an in with god. You, george, all these readers, and myself are on the exact same playing field when it comes to trying to figure out and define what is right and what is wrong. No one has a leg up and this isn’t a competition. We are all trying to define our morals, we are all trying to find our north and no one can tell the other he or she is way off, because no one is above the other.

its frustrating to hear you talk about you not trusting yourself and just trusting jesus when trusting him is trusting you. you are the one defining who he is in your life, you only see him through your perception, therefore you are trusting yourself to define a man to follow. also to hear you say that you trust your husband and not yourself, first of all again, you are trusting yourself through trusting him.. but thinking that somehow he is MORE trustworthy than you is very weird to me. if you think you are such an untrustworthy human, because you are human, then isnt he?

skylana said...

i have to question, with everything i've known that you feel, all the struggles you've been going through and the quarter life crisis you have talked about on your own blog why you see taking on all these other peoples issues (homeless, adoption, etc) as such a noble thing? i see it as an irresponsible thing to do if you have not come to a place where your struggle with your own issues has come to an end. it is not justice to be bringing other children or humans into your situation knowing full well that you have a battle going on inside of you for the life you already have.

the reason i dont have more children is not only for me, the reason i would never adopt or take on other peoples issues at the moment is because i need my shit together first. i couldn't go through a quarter life crisis because i got married young and fast and had children young and fast (as i am, or have been going through recently) and then decide to bring an innocent adopted child into that craziness. I wouldn’t bring my own child into that. a decision like that, to me, is not true selfless love. it seems if you were to truly do that it would be more like a self fulfilling act that speaks to your desire to be the kind of christian you are hoping is inside you, than an act of love for that orphaned child. sometimes we need to love ourselves. sometimes we need to be selfish, for the sake of our own hearts and for the sake of our children. i have to be selfish and find what grounds me, i have to make sure i find true peace and satisfaction in this life i have before me before i take anything else on.... that is selfless selfishness.

I do believe george was being condescending. I don’t believe he was doing it on purpose. When people think they have life pegged, as I see that george does, they come off condescending no matter what they say, because in reality the feelings they have can only lead to such treatment of others. If I believe I am right beyond all other people, if I think I have found the absolute, I have defined the true doctrine of life, or found it, then that puts everyone else below me to begin with. Does this make sense? That’s what everyone is feeling from him and that is what people will continue to feel from him until he realizes he does not have the answers. No one does.

skylana said...

brook- honestly i didn't read everything you had to write. and i probably wont, because at this point i'm so beyond sick of arguing the SAME points OVER AND OVER with christians. im not a christian, i dont agree with most on these points, i never will and that's ok. i dont expect you or george or ashley to agree with me either. i've clearly stated what i believe in this post and in many before it. you declaring what you believe to be truth in no way makes me wonder about what i believe in even the slightest, it reaffirms in me that i am exactly where i want to be.

i'd like there to be more people who read and comment on my blog who are NOT CHRISTIANS. i dont mind christians who can reason, but i'm really sick of this kind of stuff. really. i am. its just annoying saying the same things over and over for the past 3 years with people who think the same but are different people.

this wasn't really meant to be a discussion, this was meant to be about my daughters.

my latest post, the video, will be the last place for debate or discussion about these specific issues relating to christianity, once and for all i'm asking what people think and people can write away.... i just want to read.

after that, i'm pretty done with christianity. i'm so sick of hearing about it i could burst.

Brooke H. said...

Fine, I'll leave you alone. But if you don't read what I write, how do you know that I'm saying the same things others have said to you? Just a question.

Noelle said...

You know Skylana - i wish I could leave your last comment as the last post on the matter as i thought it was excellent. However i really want to say that i loved your blog. I think that SOME of the 'we Christians' on here just like the sound of their own voices too much - and maybe they should just go and write a book and be done with it. I know that's offensive but I don't care. I'm not going to try to wrap up my opinions in a 'have a nice day' candy wrapper. I too became REALLY sick of the references to bible passages and biblical figures - i wasn't aware this was a theological message board? You have made it clear more than once that these are not your beliefs and as Andy Hero so eloquently pointed out - (unlike me!)- your post was not about feminism.

How beautiful that you as a mother want your children to know that they can be whoever they want to be - and in that itself - that they are accepted and loved by you no matter what. I think that that is gorgeous and rare. And i think it has nothing to do with saying - 'if it feels good go and rape someone' - a ridiculous escalation of debate!

Just for the record, I really don't want to but I feel it is only fair to mention that I was raised and still call myself - just about - a christian. I say 'just about' - because so many 'Christians' actually believe so many different things. So I'm not sure i can truly call myself that and be understood accurately.

All I know is that i will question and search all my life - yet ultimately i know nothing - I can only hope that someday mercy will be had for that.

With love.

Elissa Rachael Parrish said...

Skylana... this post was about your daughters and your heart for them is beautiful and empowering to me...

Noelle... i loved your last two paragraphs and especially the last sentence... that is so where i am and it is refreshing for me to hear someone else say it... it's hard to explain...

Mrs. Warren said...

about the heresy... uh, some people don't chose to live a life that's jesus-centric. If you call someone a heretic because they derive happiness from something inside themselves, not outside, then it seems to me that you're the one with the problem, not them.

you're defining them in the negative. they're not defining themselves that way. it comes down to your definition of "truth" and "right." and theirs.
seems a bit self-righteous to define someone else's truth, though. you define yours, they define theirs. it's what we do in america. i think, if we're extraordinarily lucky.

just 2 bits from your friendly neighborhood non-christian.

Elissa Rachael Parrish said...

"friendly neighborhood non-christian".... lol...

ha ha... this had been reaaallllly juicy...

the light in me honors the light in all of you... whatever that light may be...


meg said...

Ashley - If you don't want to be involved in a open discussion about topics you have a difficult time with, don't comment on people's blogs and open yourself up to it in the first place. Because frankly, you commenting that this is your last comment because now others are involved and it's not just between you and Skylana is a little bit ridiculous.

Perhaps I can offer a bit of advice? Email her. Don't comment on an open forum if you don't want to be involved in conversation with other people.

George - I clearly responded to you, not your wife. And though it is really sweet of her to explain you to us and what you would do if you were going to stand up for yourself, etc. It's ridiculous and I would like to point you to my early bit of advice and say, ditto.

There are a lot of interesting topics I was hoping to discuss with you and I was frankly very interested with the possibility of you interacting with another man on the subject because you couldn't fall back on the "emotional reaction" as a resource.

So, I hope you come back and are able to look outside of your sphere and interact with the concepts and ideas that are being discussed.

meg said...

I just wanted to point out that Ashley and I had continued this discussion over at her blog, that she linked to this blog, "Debates, Truth, Jesus and the like..."

And George made a comment on her blog as well that he is "still sorry to have come across that way" He said although his tone may have been "teachy" he "rarely if ever have even those who disagree with me call me condescending" and that his "overall point still stands in his heart and mind."

Just thought I'd recap if anyone didn't see those comments.

I would, as I stated up there, still like to interact on some of the ideas that were eluded to or those brought up by Andy. But if no one's up for it, so be it.

Amanda said...

Ok so I read the blog and then read all the comments, got lost, and so I decided to read the blog again.
I don't know what got everyone stirred up. Seriously I don't.
I understand what you had to say. I got married at a young age and then had children. I don't regret it but I don't want my children to grow up and think that they HAVE to get married young. If they do decide to get married young I don't want them to think they HAVE to have kids right away.
As parents we always want better for our kids. We want them to experience things that we never got to.
I loved that you made it clear that you will still love your girls for whatever decision they make. Shouldn't we all be like that?

meg said...

Ashley I kind of wanted to discuss the idea that Amanda just posted about. Which was in fact the true nature of the post.

Isn't one of the best gifts you can give your child is teaching them that they have options? Just because mommy and daddy made a certain decision doesn't mean they have to, etc.

Also the ideas in Andy's comment could still use some interaction

Skylana wants here children to know that they have to be active in defining their own existence and that they shouldn't merely fall into whatever role culture or their parents or religion set out for them. Simple as that. Whatever the merits are of the traditional role of women you are advocating--or of feminism for that matter--for a women to choose that role based on the assumption that she has no other option is essentially a non-choice and is an egregious disservice to that woman's soul.

meg said...

Ashley - I guess I'm having a hard time figuring out how this is different than what Skylana said. The last statement in her post, that I think sums it up quite well:

i want to learn how to give them a balanced view of marriage and children, and i'm not sure quite yet how that works but i am sure as hell not going to have little girls running around saying things like 'when i grow up and get married', or 'when i grow up and have babies' as if it is their only choice.

i want to learn how to give them a balanced view of marriage and children if it is their only choice.

I guess I'm having a hard time distinguishing what you and George disagreed with? What a woman is? Or what a woman's role should be?

Just trying to understand the crux of what is disagreeable about the post.


ohhellocupcake said...

you just inspired me to write a new blog called, "why i'm never having kids" and then another one called, "why i don't like christians" and finally, "why i think catholics are really zombies".

skylana said...

Amen on all three counts Holli.